Friday, December 14, 2007

The Morality Of Waterboarding

Well I see the Legacy Media has worked itself into another pro-jihadist lather over the fact that some Al Queda thug whose name I refuse to waste bits writing was waterboarded in order to get him to reveal the details of some imminent attacks on innocent men, women, and children.

It seems that the CIA has 'admitted' to using the technique of waterboarding exactly 3 times over the past 6 years. The total amount time these subhuman scum were actually being 'tortured' was something less than 2 minutes. It also seems that the use of this technique disrupted multiple terrorist plots and saved an absolutely inestimable number of lives.

So of course the denizens of the Legacy Media Chattering Classes have almost universally condemned the practice as 'torture'. The American allies of Al Queda, most notably the entire leadership of the Democrat Party, are up in arms and are in fact sponsoring legislation to make the use of this technique illegal.

Well I'm going to make an unapologetic defense of the practice.

Waterboarding is a perfectly appropriate, ethical, and moral practice when used to obtain information that will prevent innocent people from being slaughtered. And I'll go one step farther and say that not using such techniques is what's immoral.

Anyone, and I do mean anyone, making the argument that us using such techniques somehow makes us morally equivalent to terrorists is a dangerous fool. What differentiates us, and by us I mean Americans, using waterboarding and related techniques from some banana Republic thug using them is this: We aren't using it to subjugate people, we're using them to save innocent lives. We're not waterboarding political dissidents. We're waterboarding admitted terrorist thugs who are in the process of actively planning and carrying out acts of mass murder.

Anyone who can't see this crucial distinction is as morally blind as a shit house rat.

A few years ago in Beslan, Russia a gang of islamist killers took over an elementary school which they had spent months smuggling explosives and weapons into. They burst in, took hundreds of teachers and children hostage, and threatened to execute them all if their demands were not met.

After a lengthy period of time without food, water, or any humanitarian considerations at all a young girl asked one of her captors if she could use the bathroom. The captor drew his weapon and shot her through the head, killing her. He then turned to the rest of the terrified captives, smiled, and asked if anyone else needed to use the bathroom.

Now you tell me. If it were your child were in that building and you had access to a captured but thoroughly uncooperative member of that gang of terrorists who knew a way into that building and was refusing to talk that you wouldn't be reaching for the blow torch and pliers yourself.

If you spout such nonsense in my direction I'll call you a liar to your face. Then I'll challenge you to look into your child's eyes and tell him or her that you'd let him or her be murdered rather than muss up some Al Queda thugs hair. Or if you're a married man, as am I, look at your wife and tell her the same thing.

I'll bet the next sound you hear will be her packing up herself and your kids so she can leave your worthless, morally bankrupt backside in the dust behind her.

Anyone making the argument that waterboarding terrorist killers is 'immoral' and that it would be more ethical to let innocent people be slaughtered is both morally and ethically bankrupt. They've just told you that they'd stand idly by while innocent men, women, and children were slaughtered in order for them to have some false sense of morality.

Such people are not to be trusted with the sharp scissors, let alone the safety and security of a Nation.

17 comments:

Rick Fisk said...

One time is too many. As you should probably know, information obtained by means of torture is not reliable as most military experts will tell you.

Condoning its use means that you have no problem with it being used on your own soldiers. Nay, it guarantees that it will be used on your own soldiers.

Worse, it can be used on U.S. citizens as soon as that power is put into the hands of the U.S. government. Be careful what you wish for.

At one time, you understood this sort of thing.

-demidog

Danae said...

Demidog - I have to take this opportunity to remind you of the fact that when our soldiers are captured, they don't use water boarding on them. They rip their fingernails and teeth out. The Sodomise them, they electrocute them, they nearly ALWAYS end up dead, whether by gunshot, shock, torture of some other sort, and or simply Beheaded. You Damned FOOL, you think what you like, but to the rest of us that live in REALITY you look like the ignorant Democrat with the Vote here ring in your nose. You FOOL. You just don't get that the people we are water boarding will KILL you, your kids, your friends if given half a chance. Are you really sitting there in your comfy chair telling the world that you would not do ANYTHING to protect your kids? Well, given the sheer idiocy of your post, I can say at least your genes won't stay in the pool to long with that attitude. Do you mind setting your family up on the front lines for the rest of us please? Perhaps your blood will appease them for a while.

Rick Fisk said...

So, you have a link which corroborates your claims right?

Given the fact that the U.S. has admitted that at least 43 of its detainees were murdered at the hands of U.S. Torturers, I am not impressed with your scaremongering. I am not willing to give up my freedoms because you are wetting your own pants out of fear.

The practice of torture is immoral and at one time the U.S. was proud of its refusal to participate in torture.

Danae said...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-06-20-missing-soldiers_x.htm

There's One. Here's a quote from the Article so you don't have to trouble yourself with the link. I can go on, but you appeared to have asked for just one. I don't give a cold crap at dawn about your morality, your MORALITY isn't gonna save you in the end fool, and THAT is the point. The last time I checked, it also did not save 3000 people in the WTC on September 11th 2001.

++++++++++++++

BAGHDAD — Two U.S. soldiers missing since their checkpoint came under attack last week have been found dead, the U.S. military said Tuesday.
"Coalition forces have recovered what we believe are the remains of the soldiers," Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said.

Caldwell said the bodies were found late Monday by U.S. troops near Youssifiyah, where the two went missing Friday. The bodies were recovered early Tuesday.

Recovering the bodies was painstaking because insurgents had booby-trapped the area around the bodies with explosives, according to a U.S. military statement.

The military statement said an Iraqi civilian had tipped off coalition forces about where the bodies could be found. The informant also warned that the area was booby-trapped, the statement said.

Maj. Gen. Abdul-Aziz Mohammed, an Iraqi Defense Ministry official, said the soldiers "were killed in a barbaric way."

Rick Fisk said...

You're making my point perfectly. You scared little chicken hawks who demand that we send our sons and daughters into harms way have no morality. If we weren't there, then there would be no soldiers killed in "a barbaric way".

Danae said...

Ah, little minds.... you just have to love em...

Sir, please tell me, which came first the chicken or the Egg?

Let me put it this way, WHO were we attacking on Sept 11th 2001? Who were we torturing when the Cole was Bombed? Or lets see… how about when our embassies were bombed in Africa? Who were we torturing when the WTC was attacked in 1993, during the administration of your so beloved fool of a peacenik- military hating Billy (insert cigar here) Clinton?

Let me frame that question with a little history for you: No one that the Clinton Administration hadn’t started a fight with.

You pansy ass little peace nicks seem to BELEIVE the BS you spout I grant you that, it however, does not change FACTS. Islamofacists are going to come kill as many people as they can, your "Morality" isn't going to save you, so please, by all means, put a sign on your forehead that says, "Kill me, I won't fight back in any sort of way". You have fun! You go buy that snazzy Burka for your wife and daughters. I will applaud you, it will remove the necessity of those of us who DO see reality of having to protect your dumb ass. So I thank you in advance. Don't forget to bring your whole family along with you since, in a MORAL sense, it would be immoral to be so Hypocritical as to leave them behind in a "Safe" place!

You see Rick, Islam really doesn’t MIND using Torture, they rather like it, it gets their point across! That point being: Do what we tell you, how we tell you to do it, and when we tell you to do it or THIS will be the consequence. It’s a brutally simple form of communication, and sadly, it’s also the ONLY form of communication they know. You see Rick, for them “Brutally” murdering someone is just Business as Usual, you and people like you… you get your panties all in a knot when people get PANTIES put on their heads, Oh the HORROR! People like you see THAT as torture. We don’t brutally murder people, we don’t go and behead people on video tape and publish it on the internet, yet somehow you make US into the Perpetrator??? We don’t strap bombs onto kids and then chain their parents to the wheel of a car and force them into crowded markets and remote control detonate whole families. THOUSANDS of people have been murdered by forces that deem these tactics as Standard Operating Procedure, yet you brazenly stand there and try to make the United States of America look like the BAD GUY?!?! Not only are you wrong, you are a stupid idiot.

Another point here, lets ask ourselves why we would use harsh means to get information: Maybe cause these people WANT TO KILL US? Hello, anyone there? Maybe these murderers don’t want to give away their plans or their co-conspirators? We don’t randomly walk up to Ali Foreigner and just wisk ‘em away and torture them. We look for Ali who hangs out with Terrorists and runs their errands for them and has information about plans to MURDER us. If Ali Foreigner weren’t out to KILL US, we would not CARE about Ali Foreigner. Ask yourself this as well, who created this Hatred? It wasn’t the United States fool, it was the Governments of the countries they came from. Why, because if those ignorant poor dependent and scared shitless fools hate someone else, they won’t go after the leaders who dine on Caviar and fly jet set all over the world to stay in 5 star hotels wined and dined but the leaders of the world, and KEEP THEM POOR AND LIVING ON IN FILTH AND POVERTY. Oh I forgot, the DO offer payments to the families of Suicide Murderers, that has actually become a HUGE source of income, its sad really there is a whole generation of little boys literally being raised to be walking Bombs, yet some how WE are the Problem? That is pure IDIOCY!

Rick, you fool, you are fighting the wrong fight, against the wrong side. The United States Waterboarding suspects we have damn good reason to believe have information that can save hundreds of your fellow human beings is absolutely justified. By what means you ask? By the very means of the Enemies’ CHOICE to BE an enemy and by his choice in what means to execute his war justifies it. Its our choice to use what means we have to in order to protect ourselves. If Ali Foreigner chose to fight us by means of water balloons and Panties on the heads of prisoners your argument would be valid. However they don’t. Get your head out of the sand. You do not fight a man with a Machete with a ball of silly putty. If he is coming at you to kill or maim you and your family, you KILL him with a Gun BEFORE he can reach you. Otherwise you are dead and all your Morality arguments dead with you. You can NOT talk this enemy into Morality. Because he CHOOSES to act as he does, those actions in very great part dictate how we MUST react and deal with a deadly threat presented TO us. Rick, we didn’t CREATE this, but we have to DEAL with it none the less.

In other words Rick, go back to the playground with your silly putty and read some kiddy stories, it will make you feel better and allow those of us who understand the stakes to get the job done.

Rick Fisk said...

You really want to ignore reality it would seem.

Between 1992 and 2003, the U.S. flew 40 THOUSAND bombing sorties over Iraq and had troops stationed in Saudi Arabia.

The number of civilian deaths in Iraq, undisputed by Madeline Albright was 500,000 as of 2003.

The U.S. occupied the northern area of Iraq for 11 years before the most recent war began.

I'm not the person who is afraid of terrorists. You are. The government has failed to protect us from terrorists (therefore it is patently absurd to broaden their powers in reward of this failure) and no valuable information has been received via the use of waterboarding or other forms of torture.

You don't understand the stakes. You are just another chickenhawk who wants others to fight for you.

Danae said...

HAHAHA Oh the potential fodder in THAT post! ROFL!

But that would be off topic... lol

Rick, don't make the assumption I am trying to change your mind. Most certainly I am not, no one can fix stupid. I am merely out to make you look like an idiot. I have succeeded.

Lurker said...

Rick,

You're simply incorrect when you say 'no useful information' has been gained by the use of this technique.

Even the dunderheaded Dems in Congress admit that innocent lives were saved.

As far as our troops having been stationed in SA goes, we were there at the invitation of the Saudi government. When they asked us to leave, we did.

And the bombings that were done between 92 and 03 were done to enforce a UN sponsored 'no fly' zone that Hussein himself agreed to after he lost Gulf War 1.

Those troops we had in northern Iraq were there to protect the Kurds from folks like Chemical Ali. You do remember Chemical Ali don't you Rick?

He's the guy who was convicted and hung for planning and directing poison gas attacks (a WMD Rick) against the local Kurdish population.

But I suppose you'd be much happier if Hussein and his clan were still dropping mustard and nerve gas on Kurdish kids.

As far as me 'having no problem' with torture being used on our soldiers goes let me state this, the jihadi scum you're assisting are already fucking doing it.

I'd call what happened to those contractors in Falluja 'torture'. You do remember them don't ya Ricky?

You know, the guys who had their balls cut off and stuffed into their mouths before they were set on fire and hung from a bridge. Those guys. You know, those vicious 'mercenaries' who were over there helping to build schools and hospitals and power plants and such.

Our guys have been tortured by the enemies of this country since we became a country.

The Brits used horrible methods of extracting information during the Revolutionary War.

Before the war of 1812 they were capturing our ships on the high seas and forcing American citizens into chattel slavery on board British ships.

During WWI our guys were routinely gassed to the point of permanent blindness and death.

During WWII the Japanese made the Nazis look like choirboys. They cut the heads off of American POWs just to test the edges of their swords. They used chemical and biological weapons on our prisoners.

That's why we hung Japanese officers wholesale after the war.

So you've got your liberal self righteous panties in a bunch because we dumped a couple of buckets of water over these thugs.

BFD.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You're a hopeless case.

All I can do is allow nitwits like you a public forum so that normal people can see you for what you are and decide for themselves that none of the lot of you are to be trusted anywhere near the levers of political power in this country.

Lurker

Rick Fisk said...

"And the bombings that were done between 92 and 03 were done to enforce a UN sponsored 'no fly' zone that Hussein himself agreed to after he lost Gulf War 1."

This is sad. You believe that a foreign international body has the authority to set up no fly zones and that we have an obligation to enforce said international laws.

To say that Hussein "agreed" to this is like saying a woman who is raped agreed to being raped.

Putting people into service as laborers is not torture. I'm not shocked that you would try and equate the two.

"You're simply incorrect when you say 'no useful information' has been gained by the use of this technique."

No, I'm not incorrect. There have been ZERO convictions of anyone who it is alleged perpetrated the 9/11 attacks. Unless you believe that every one of the conspirators was killed that day, this is a horrible outcome. 6 years and no justice, an increased level of Al Qaeda recruitment, 5000+ US soldiers killed and hundreds of thousands injured.

All so you can feel safe. But you won't go.

No, I don't think that it is Ron Paul or people like me who believe that this militaristic approach is unsustainable both economically and from a security standpoint.

I think it is people like you and your ignorant pal here who believe that aggressive, unprovoked invasions are good for our security who are losing their credibility.

Not a single prediction about the Iraq war has come true. It has now cost us close to 600 billion dollars many lives of American soldiers and many, many civilians who had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11.

We're less safe now, closer to bankrupcy and we're losing our liberties.

But you keep on telling everyone what a smashing success this policy has been.

Danae said...

Rick,

You can't even answer to basic facts, but then you likely think that Karl Rove really DOES have a weather Machine and that President Bush ordered those planes to fly into the WTC!

Damn, I am glad you are showing your true colors, I didn't know that putrid shade of yellow existed.

If you think 9-11 was NOT a provocation then here’s one you might just get.

Fuck you.

Put your money where your mouth is. Volunteer to go to Iraq.

Yea, you are a coward. You say we won't go, my Husband has already served. Made the Sacrifice Bub? No? Back to the kiddy pool with you.

Rick Fisk said...

If you think that Iraq had anything whatsoever to do with 9/11 then you are indeed more than ignorant.

Danae said...

If you think it didn't not only are you ignorant you are pathetically mis-informed, but clearly a Propaganda eating follower. Look up jveritas on FR, or shoot just google it. Get educated foo.

Rick Fisk said...

So you don't believe Bush?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3118262.stm


Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

Danae said...

Read the translated Documents Rick. Are you afraid of becoming educated or is it the whole having to admit you were wrong thing?

Um hum....

**crickets**

FYI The Second Iraq war became inevitable once Oil for Food Began, it was Saddam’s means of getting out from under the UN, and it nearly succeeded. All that thanks to Bill Clinton, who refused to take action, emboldening not only Saddam, but Osama Bin Laden, with out even having to broach the issue of Somalia! Saddam regularly paid off suicide Bombers and actively if secretly met and had agreed to work with Osama. You see, in the middle East they really do take the phrase "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" seriously, and to achieve the goal of hurting the USA in any way possible through the alliance both men would have and in fact DID work together. Its no accident that many of the leaders of Al Qaeda in Iraq had spent lots of time in Iraq LONG before the second war began.

You are a fool.

You go ahead and continue to believe in your fallacy that if we just play nice these brutal people will too. It didn't work for Carter, who stabbed the Shah of Iran in the back for the Islamofacists, not for the 444 Hostages they took either. It hasn't worked for Israel, it has not EVER worked.

The ONLY way to deal with them it to DEFEAT them. I guess that offends your sensibilities, I really don't care. You go ahead and keep tilting at your windmill. You will have just about as much luck as Don Quixote.

Rick Fisk said...

Translated documents? Looks like we may be at a point of agreement. George Bush says "We have no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the 11 September attacks," you are going to call him a liar.

Bush is a liar alright.

Danae said...

So are you Rick.

Guess that makes you two even.

Biggest difference... President Bush freed 25 Million people in Iraq and removed an Evil dictator, freed Afghanistan, Created and fostered a fantastic Economy which continues to boom today, all after 9-11 and a recession inherited from the Previous Administration. I can go on.

What have YOU done lately?

Lie and spread more lies just because you can not get over having a President in Office that actually leads with out polling on how doing the right thing is gonna affect his numbers. In other words, President Bush is going to do what he thinks is right and really doesn’t give a crap what you and your fellow idiots think. He knows more than you do for one and for two he’s is just flat out smarter than you. All of which just makes you froth at the mouth doesn’t it?

Please spare us the response to this, we already know how absolutely deranged Bush Haters like you are. No need to repeat that same old crap yall spew... we have heard it all before, and its not going to change a thing. It’s also not going to make a thing you say true. I offered up FACTS to you, and still you can accept neither the truth nor can you admit you are wrong. Heck, you can’t even take the time or effort to read something that would give you better information and actually make you a more informed person, but then informed is not your reason to be now is it?

In fact, now that I think about it, you aren't going to change either, so how about you just go back to your happy place, DUmmies (Democratic Underground) are missing one of their idiots. Oh, make sure you keep that ring in your nose properly hydrated, otherwise I hear they cause chafing, this is best done by drinking the Kool-Aid...